Sunday, March 1, 2020

How Long Should Orgasm Denial Last?

Judging by the many comments in the last post, I’d say orgasm denial is a popular topic. Given the interest, I thought it was worthwhile to do another post on the topic to highlight some of the themes from the comments and address a few questions that were raised. For my wonderful Goddess Female readers, I highly recommend that you read through the comments in the last post. There is a lot that you can learn from what the guys commented on, about how orgasm denial affects them. It's great insights into the submissive mind.

To start with, it was reaffirming to me to see that the males who commented expressed how much they enjoy orgasm denial. I appreciate all your input as it helps support the information and advice that I post. In addition, to enjoying the pleasure of being teased and denied, it was noted that being denied regularly helps keeps submissive men in an obedient and submissive state of mind. This is true and a great benefit of orgasm denial. I want to point out that orgasm denial is part of a broader concept of orgasm control (OC). OC is about putting the wife in control of when and how the husband orgasms. This gives her incredible power over the husband and keeps him focused on her. I have written more about orgasm control in this post from June 2016: https://femdomthinktank.blogspot.com/2016/06/tapping-into-his-submissive-mind-orgasm.html

Permanent Denial?
That brings me to the topic of this post: ‘How long should orgasm denial last?” I landed on this topic because there was some discussion in the comments of the last post alluding to permanent orgasm denial and whether or not the male really needs to orgasm. My position on this is that, Yes, the male needs to orgasm on occasion. There are a few reasons for this. First, I think it is healthy for males to ejaculate every now and then. I’m not a doctor so that’s just my opinion on the physical health. However, I do know that for some guys, it is important to have that release for mental health. Many guys have reported that they get irritable, angry, or depressed with long-term denial. In the comments on the last post Philip shared an experience about this. My husband often becomes annoying with extended denial periods because his hormones run wild and he can not leave me alone. That is when I know it’s time to allow an orgasm for him.

The wife needs to be aware of these signs and monitor their husband’s behavior and attitude to determine if his mental stability is being affected by the denial.  Relief needs to be provided before he explodes with anger or depression. This reminds me of the movies, when you see someone watching a pressure gauge that slowly rises and hits the red mark. Then everything starts to rattle and shake under the pressure and then inevitably there is an explosion. Yikes!  We don’t want any explosions!

The submissive also has a responsibility to communicate to his wife if he is feeling too much pressure and having negative feelings. Joan discussed this in her comments in the last post. This is tricky as denial is a bit of a game and the wife is often pushing limits and challenging the husband’s desire to orgasm. For this reason, guys only should bring this to the wife when they feel the denial is having a material negative effect on them. Otherwise they are undermining the trust in the relationship. If the guy is sincere and honest in how he feels, the wife should accept what he is saying and come up with a plan to address the issue.

Another reason that men should not be permanently denied, is that (in my opinion) permanent denial reduces the wife’s power and control and takes away the excitement of tease and denial. If the husband knows there is no possibility of cumming, then what motivation is there for him obey her? Allowing an orgasm is a big reward for men and when they have hope that their obedience and servitude will eventually lead to an orgasm, it keeps them motivated.  Additionally, part of the fun in teasing and denial, is keeping him wondering when his orgasm will happen.

One final thought against permanent denial is that I believe all married couples should experience mutual orgasms during sex every now and then down. It’s intimate and almost spiritual when that happens. I know some dominant women forbid their husbands from having intercourse with them. I respect that approach and understand that it can be an exciting power dynamic, but I do think they are missing out on something very special.

Length of Denial
Now that I ruled out permanent denial, let’s move on to the question of how long should denial last. The answer varies and depends on several factors, including: the wife’s desires, the husband’s tolerance for denial, and what the wife wants to accomplish with denial. 

With OC, the wife ultimately decides when the husband can orgasm. Her desires are what matter most.  Some women enjoy seeing their husband have an orgasm and enjoy feeling him orgasm during sex. If that is what she desires, then short-term denial probably works best. Even if the wife wants her husband to orgasm every time during sex, she can still practice OC. She does this by requiring him to always ask for permission to orgasm or telling him he is not allowed to orgasm until she gives permission. So while he knows he will ultimately orgasm, he has no idea of the exact moment.  It is very powerful when a wife commands ‘cum for me’ and the husband instantly explodes into orgasm. She also practices OC by forbidding him from masturbating to orgasm at any time, unless she gives permission to do so.  She can also employ denial through teasing. She can tease him over and over to the edge of orgasm and he has no idea when she will finally allow him to orgasm. Some of my most fun and intense sessions with Thomas have been when I’ve teased him endlessly and then suddenly allowed him to orgasm.

While there are some women the enjoy seeing their husband orgasm, other women have little desire for it. In fact, many women don’t like the sticky mess so they are more than happy to incorporate denial into their routine. For these women, medium ( 1 – 4 weeks) denial or long-term denial (1+ months) can work well.

The husband’s tolerance for denial also needs to be considered when deciding how long denial should last. When it comes to long-term denial, not all men are created equal. Some can deal with it and for some men it makes them go off the rails. A man’s tolerance can change over time.  His age, libido, and experience with denial affect his tolerance. Younger men tend to have a much higher libido and need for orgasm and so medium and long-term denial may be too big of a challenge for them. Trying longer term denial with younger guys or guys with is high sex drive often leads to accidental orgasms or may result in irritability, stress, and anger.  Older men tend to have lower libidos and can usually handle longer term denial. For many older men, orgasm denial helps increase their libido and so they love it.

Regardless of age, most men can not handle long-term denial right from the beginning. It usually takes lots of practice and training for a boy to build up the tolerance to be denied long-term. From my experiences and from what I have heard from others, most people start off with short-term denial (a few days) and the progress slowly to long term denial (1+ months).  I would imagine the most guys new to orgasm denial would not even fathom going 2+ weeks without an orgasm. The interesting thing about orgasm teasing and denial is that it can easily turn into an addiction for both husband and wife. As the wife realizes increasing power and control through the use of OC, as well the joy of being pampered and pleasured without having to worry about the husband having an orgasm, it becomes more exciting for her and the addiction grows. Likewise the addiction grows for the husband when he discovers the intense pleasure of being edged and when he experiences the wonderful submissive emotions from being subject to OC.  

Ironically, the more he experiences the desperation to orgasm, the more he craves the denial. In the beginning it may be inconceivable to the guy to be denied orgasm for several days in a row. He may even be resistant to the idea. However, when pushed and challenged by the wife to go longer, it creates a thrilling dynamic and that’s when many guys suddenly understand the joy of denial and begin to develop an addiction to it. It is not uncommon for guys experienced with orgasm denial, who have learned to control their orgasm, to want to go for very long periods of denial and to even be disappointed when they are allowed to orgasm because they are enjoying the thrill of denial so much. Even though they are begging to orgasm, deep down they want to hear their wife say 'no', and they love the erotic high they are getting from being denied. Therefore, if you are a Female experimenting with denying your husband, do not be afraid to push the limits with denial.  That is part of the excitement for the guy.

On the flip side, I do not like to let Thomas get too comfortable with his denial. I typically allow him an orgasm once every 2 -3 months. Sometimes it's shorter and sometimes it's longer. Guys that are kept on a long-term denial schedule can forget about the pleasure of having regular orgasms and so it becomes easy for them to handle orgasm denial. When this happens, they gain a bit of control in the relationship. Ladies, we can't let that happen! When I feel that Thomas has mastered the long-term denial and that it is becoming easy or routine for him, I will switch it up. I will unexpectedly switch to short-term denial, allowing him to orgasm a few weeks in a row or maybe even twice in a week. Now suddenly he is enjoying the new routine and remembering the joy and pleasure of regular orgasms. I only let it last for a few weeks and then I switch back to long-term denial. He of course, does not know when I will make the switch. This keeps him guessing on when the next orgasm will be. It's a total mind fuck for him. After the period of short-term denial, it becomes a challenge again for him to go long-term. I have now gained back that little bit of control that slipped away previously. 

Another factor that affects the length of denial is what the wife wants to accomplish with the denial. There are many things that denial can be used for. It can be used for punishment. Extending the length of denial can be an effective punishment. It can be used for motivation by shortening the denial by giving the husband the opportunity to orgasm if he is good or after he completes certain tasks. Even offering an intense teasing and denial session without orgasm is a motivator for guys. I know Thomas would love a session like that. Denial can also be used to keep the husband in a constant submissive and obedient state of mind which is a key premise behind 24/7 orgasm control. When used for this purpose, the length of denial will vary based on the other two variables mentioned above (wife’s desire and husband’s tolerance of denial).  Let’s also not forget that denial can be used just for fun and amusement of the wife.

In the end, when it comes to OC and length of denial, the couple has to do what works best for them. I have more thoughts related to orgasm denial and will write more about it in my next post.

-Kaylee

23 comments:

  1. This is excellent info!
    For me, it appears every man/and woman have quite varying degrees and experiences with OC- which I suppose there isn't a wrong or right answer.
    In regards to my experience, the low I feel after an orgasm isn't positive- regardless if it was authorized. Libido is low, not much communication, little desire for submissive attitude, laziness and withdrawn. I catch myself wondering that maybe I was better off not having the orgasm. My wife clearly sees the negative attitude and different behavior change and absolutely does not like it. This recovery period last days or even more than a week.

    I think a ruined orgasm allows to clean the pipes. Nonetheless, I haven't seen much data on this... Needing to clean the pipes. If this need was true, then doctors would be telling young boys/young adults ( 15 yr old to 25 for example) that they should be having sex regularly or masturbating regularly. I imagine there are many healthy male bodies who practice abstinence and don't masturbate (which could be an addiction), that are healthy.. I definitely haven't seen any articles on such... Saying they need sex/masturbate.

    Another perspective on permanent denial is that I don't think the man loses motivation. I have never felt it. If anything, the desire to be submissive grows and to please my wife. My focus and attention to her increases because the training becomes clearer with purpose. A deeper understanding and euphoria arrives to honor your wife. That's from me.
    From my wife, she loves the desire given, the communication everyday with every word held to her with respect and love. She absolutely despises the recovery time and has no advantage for it...as well as the mess for cum.

    Again, many women don't desire PIV sex and I don't think I could tell them they are wrong to dominate their man in such fashion. Many also love giving bjs as many would say " never" because it's not a power position that delivers and benefits to the woman. I think either perspective could be true and advantageous for a marriage.

    Just a few of my thoughts.
    Great stuff again! Hope to read many others ideas.

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    1. I appreciate your perspective. Thanks for sharing. Your second paragraph had me laughing because I seriously can not believe that there young gus who are not either masturbating or having sex. There would be no reason for doctors to tell guys to masturbate or have sex because it is already rampant behavior among men. But could you imagine if that's what the doctor prescribed? Too funny! In my next post I will write about the "sub drop" you referred to.

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  2. What a wonderful post Mz Kaylee! There is nothing in it I don't agree with, you have (not surprising of course) a great insight into how to push submissive men's buttons.

    My opinion and strong belief on the length of orgasm denial: as long or short as the dominant Woman desires. I really don't want to have (and haven't had over the last 3 years) any say in it. Initially my Wife only controlled my masturbation (she didn't and still doesn't allow any) and still allowed unlimited orgasms from sex or her hand, but this morphed gradually into her complete control and drastic reduction of my orgasms (I went over 5 years from daily ejaculations to about 1-2 per month or even less, with zero regularity to it) and significant increase in hers. I am over 50, but my libido is as strong as ever, even though my performance with the penis is no longer what it used to be and abstinence from orgasms really helps with it.

    When my wife enforced a complete ban on my masturbation 5 years ago after tollerating (but not approving) it for more than 15 years previously, I thought she was crazy and unfair; how could a serial masturbator like me (since my pre-teens years) survive without the essential daily ejaculations? I thought it impossible. But she was very firm, I was to get as much sex as I wanted, but only if I behaved. She gave me an ultimatum, either my hand or her pussy, I would no longer get both. I still remember the early attempts when she punished me for masturbation every time by complete withdrawal on any sex contacts for a week or so. Yes, I cried and begged (real tears once or twice), it was so hard. Yet here I am now...

    Another thought: I have the hardest time to be denied orgasm about 2 weeks into denial. After that it starts getting easier, but there are still some bouts of strong sweet/painful frustration later down the road. Most of the time through lengthy denials I remain horny, I get aroused easily, but also lose erection quickly unless deliberately teased. I guess my dick "learns" not to waste energy when it is clear "he" will get no fun, LOL. It really feels like I have no control over the response of my dick. But I don't get grumpy or resentful because of orgasm and vaginal sex denial, I get like that if I am ignored.

    And finally, I have learned to derive nearly orgasmic pleasure from pleasuring my wife with my mouth, fingers, toys, without any active involvement of my penis. Give me that and my own orgasm is not really needed to make me feel fulfilled. I enjoy her sexual response with all my senses, above all her scent, taste and the reponse of her body to what I do to her. I am still waiting for my first orgasm from it, with no touching, but even now, when we are finished and after her orgasm, there are always two puddles on the sheets, and the one from my precum is usually the bigger one.

    I don't think my wife will ever stop giving me orgasms completely. I am also pretty sure some further reduction will happen. Whatever she decides, I think I will accept. My penis, balls and orgasms are hers.

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    1. Wonderful thoughts and very insightful. Thank you.

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  3. My wife and I have been practicing Male Orgasm Control for close to 10 years. Your post wonderfully captures how a man can come to crave denial, and how both husband and wife must communicate and cooperate to manage the man's strong and often contradictory feelings.

    For our sessions, I'll sit back naked, propped up on pillows, and my wife will sit between my legs, and apply a generous amount of lotion to my erection. She's become expert at bringing me to the edge, calming me down, and raising me back up to peak arousal. She'll run her fingertips between my legs, firmly stroke my shaft, and lovingly squeeze my glans. I tell her when I'm close to orgasm, but she generally knows.

    At the time, I powerfully feel my male programming to ejaculate, but at the same time, my desire to keep in control. Fortunately, I don't have to decide! What happens next is up to her.

    Sometimes she'll take me over the edge, and I enjoy intense orgasms, moaning loudly as she brings me to completion. More often she'll stroke me just to nearly the point of no return, then slide her slick hands off the head of my penis, and let it slap back against my stomach. I'll struggle to breathe and relax my muscles, as I accept that our play is over.

    Once I've calmed down, I'm happy she denied me, for the reasons you describe. I'm more enthralled by her, and her control, than ever. We're in our 50s, and she allows me about an orgasm a month, which feels like the right amount for us.

    I encourage any couple to start their Orgasm Control journey. It has been a wonderful bonding experience for us!
    CK

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  4. My wife argues that rewarding me with an orgasm every time I'd "become annoying or angry" is precisely the opposite precedent she wants to set. That said, she gets that it's important to keep me motivated. But she argues that a male can be motivated as much by the female's desires as his own, and that what she wants to accomplish is for me to fully subvert my own desire in place of hers. Hence oral sex for her, she says, should give me the same amount of pleasure, and that the reason it may not is that I am not experiencing the depth of pleasure that the female orgasm entails (i.e. as much mental as physical, if not even more mental than physical). I guess this is a long winded way of saying she says the female orgasm is on a different plateau than the male orgasm and ought to be treated as such. So that's where I'm at now, trying to show her that I can understand and experience what a woman feels through her desire and pleasure.

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  5. The orgasm is a reward for the months of obedience and good behavior not because he is getting annoying. The "annoying" factor is a sign that he is reaching his limit with denial. With my husband I know he is not doing it purposefully and it would be foolish of me to ignore that sign. Usually relief comes for him before he gets annoying so that he does not associate the behavior with orgasm

    Good luck with your pleasure seeking. Without a vagina you will never understand our pleasure. You can never be as good as us silly boy ;) but certainly a worthy cause to try.

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  6. Hi,

    I think I'm going to learn a lot with this blog. I love it!


    I usually masturbate between 2 and 5 times per week. For me, the 3 days of OD used to turn me mad, making me very hot and submissive. The problem is that I didn't know how to manage my energy.

    She likes a minimum of 3 days of OD, but once she started feeling OK with her rol the number of days started to be random.

    My maximun has been 14 days. Too much for me.

    I wouldn't be able to stay one or two months without cumming. Orgasm is the best thing nature has given to us.

    I have satisfied her a little number of times without an orgasm for me.

    My problem is that i loose concentration in ordinary things when she puts me under OD.

    I suffer, but I love it.

    Kisses.

    Monsieur O.

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    1. This may not be for everyone. My cousin’s husband had a full tight circumcision with frenum removed and vasectomy. Its better for the girls. On her recommendation my husband had both done before we tied the knot and resulted in better sexual control and confidence. Replace your masturbation with non male orgasm sex and you’ll be better of for it.

      Lora

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  7. I need your female advice on this, and I would gladly go with your advice, Mz Kaylee.

    I have always felt inferior to women no matter if they're younger or older than me.
    But I don't know how to approach a woman about wanting to be her servant or wanting to run errands/work for her.

    How do I approach, say, a woman at work? I have a lot of female colleagues - most of them in higher positions than me - and I just want to make their lives easier and let them make the decisions.

    I'm not necessarily looking for a girlfriend, I'm just looking for a woman to boss me around basically and belittle me if she wants. It could also be online if a woman was up for that.

    How do you suggest I could about this, ma'am?

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    1. You are looking for a chep thrill to satisfy your own desires. Sorry but I do not provide advice for that. This blog is about building lasting and meaningful female led relationships.

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  8. Mz Kaylee,
    I agree that Orgasm Control is a must to have a successful Wife Led Marriage, although there may be some spouses that achieve a full D/s relationship without it. My wife is switching it up to give me frustration (pleasant frustration). Frankly, the frustration balanced with amazing intimacy is a great part of the enjoyment for me, with or without an orgasm. As far as how long? From experience 10 weeks is about all the denial all I can take, thought there are times I'd prefer denial would be longer.
    Thank you,
    Phil

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  9. Mz Kaykee,
    More comments really surfaced in my mind on this topic but had to sort them out.

    "For many older men, orgasm denial helps increase their libido and so they love it."

    I agree with this. When I pleasured myself in the past, I was never ready for intimacy. As we modified our marriage and then entered our 50s, we both noticed that orgasm denial has me ready for intimacy when my Mistress is, with a few exceptions such as if I feel really under the weather. Now there’s always the possibility of an orgasm, but I don't want one more than I do. There's certain sensual feeling I get from the thought that being denied is true submission, if that makes sense.

    "However, when pushed and challenged by the Mistress to go longer, it creates a thrilling dynamic and that’s when many guys suddenly understand the joy of denial and begin to develop an addiction to it."

    Yes. I’m addicted to it. The only problem for me, and my Mistress is now sensitive to this, is that when I hit my stride and find I can control not having an orgasm even if strenuous sex activity going on, frustration gets the best of me at that 10-week level. My mind stays with the thought of "I not having an orgasm no matter what" and my body says, "I need an orgasm and that's that". That causes me to freak. In reality though, I see 10 weeks of denial as amazing to tolerate considering I used to orgasm almost every day. My Mistress found notching activity back some on rigorous activity helps me to enjoy extended denial.

    “Let’s also not forget that denial can be used just for fun and amusement of the Mistress.”

    Yes, but there’s something that attracts me to this. I enjoy it at some level when Mistress displays her power to deny and frustrate me for her own pleasure. I feel more submissive once I calmed down. There’s a little pleasure I also get out of knowing that for many years I only cared about my own orgasm, no matter how I had it, and left her without one. In some way it’s a little teasing payback in my mind. I used to neglect my “wife” and her orgasm quite often.
    Thank You,
    Phil

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    1. It all makes sense to me Phil. OD is powerful and has tremendous emotional impact. As discussed in the post, that is why the wife needs to monitor the situation and decide when it's best to allow or demand an orgasm from you.

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  10. I live a FLR 24/7 relationship with my wife and Queen. I am her slave. We do add in permanent denial. To tell you the truth, as a submissive I don't like to come. I prefer to be in a state of total denial. With rare ruined orgasms. Without ever feeling the total relief. It is best to know what works best for each couple.

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    1. Thank you for sharing your persepctive and experience. I completely agree with your last sentence.

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  11. It’s not about how long he should be denied but rather results. We don’t do a female led relationship although we have elements of it. My husband does better with minimal orgasms keeping him attentive and more emotionally connected with me. We have two flavours, vaginal sex where I have an orgasm and he doesn’t and vaginal sex without an orgasm for either of us which even if only short keeps him sweet with plentiful sex.
    With his consent I’m in charge of his orgasm management and control, although orgasm control aside we practice sexual obedience to each other. Ultimately the buck stops with me if he gets heated, I kick him off the bed onto the bedroom floor on his knees for timeout. After some cooling I have him kiss my feet, arse and give me oral leaving him with a rosy glow. Sometimes I do this anyway raising a false flag call on orgasm control as it has emotionally positive outcomes for him.
    In the early days we tried Karezza sex but found I need regular orgasms while he was a different man with limited orgasms. He only gets to have orgasms with my permission or on pre-planned special occasions such as birthdays. On pre-planned occasions its open field for him no permission required though he often looks to me for permission waiting for approval during sex. On his last birthday after two months without an orgasm in preparation I changed plan on him withdrawing permission during sex kicking him off the bed for timeout continuously and jumping him again for more action it went on for hours leaving him in a big sweaty shaking mess eventually I ended up on top of him on the couch in the lounge before falling asleep. He was counting on having an orgasm but found it to be the best present ever.
    I love having him cum in me but the drawback is he can drift towards being emotionally flat and irritable afterwards lasting a day or two.
    We love mutual sexual obedience being controlled and taking control. It’s very positive having him make the decision that we’re going to be having sex and taking my orders obediently. Last Friday I was about to head out with the girls for a dinner when my friends car pulled up outside on the street for pickup. He swung me round by the hips pushing me over the kitchen counter his boxers down pulling my dress up, underpants to the side and slide it straight in gently stroking. Soon I could see my friend was walking up to the front door. This thirty second episode left me hanging as I kissed him before heading out with my friend oblivious to what happened before.

    Lora


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    1. Lora - that sounds very exciting and fun. I'd love to hear more about mutual sexual obedience. I am not sure that I fullly understand the concept.

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    2. Also, you first sentence is right on the money. I'll referncing that in my next post. Thanks!

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    3. Mutual sexual obedience, the initiator takes the dominant role and indicates they’re master. When initiated on you, it involves complete submission, obedience and devotion. Its great to take turns and we find it positive taking sexual control of each other while playing as a team and making sure he doesn’t have an orgasm.

      Lora

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  12. Mz Kaylee,
    I know my husband (Phil) had commented. I'd like to mention again that during our WLM anniversary week he will be given complete freedom for orgasms. No tease and denial. He promised to ravage me when I originally told him, and if he does he's earned it. He puts up with a lot, but says he loves every minute. I'm convinced he does. Our marriage is, no doubt, more fun and intimate than ever.

    This morning I was mentioning that anniversary is almost here. It wasn't in any way meant as a tease, but Phil took it to be related to his orgasms. He shocked me by saying, "I'm almost not looking forward to being free when we go upstate." I asked him what he meant, and he said, "It's somehow more fun with you calling the shots on my orgasms.” I joked, “Be careful or I’ll change my mind.” He kissed me and headed for work. Phil looked so corporate with his shaved head, business casual slacks and a new sports jacket. I think if I denied him orgasms while we were he’d be happy. I won’t. I truly believe he need a break from time to time even if he has a period of being annoying afterwards. It passes. It’s just that he seemed so sincere when he said it I almost teared up. It’s obvious some men just love to be teased and denied. I think you alluded to that about your husband in a past blogs.
    Regards,
    Joan

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    1. I enjoyed your comment Joan. I am not too surprised by his reaction. Submissive men crave structure and control. It will be interesting to see what he actually does with his freedom. I think it's a fun idea to give him the temporary freedom. It can be a bit of a mind game for him to be given a brief moment of freedom and then bring him back under your control.

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  13. Mz Kaylee,
    Thank you for your comment. This past weekend my husband and I discussed our anniversary getaway next month, which we both found to be an interesting diversion at such a difficult time based on the news. You are correct about a submissive man craving control. Phil craves it, which is part of the reason why a WLM has such appeal to him and why he enjoys it.

    It came as a surprise that Phil got around to seriously asked me if he could be given only a couple of days of freedom when we go, rather than a week. I allow him just a few orgasms over the year. While this works for us, I still believed he would want more time. When I questioned him to make sure he wasn’t sneakily indulging me, I said “Ok.” I won’t be nasty, however, and he can change his mind. Phil even told me he enjoyed wearing his chastity cage. I’ll plan to pack it and the key. We indulge each other obviously. I have no issue with him wearing his cage it if he likes it. He wears it to work to discourage masturbation, but I’ve also stashed him in it a few times as punishment. His cage tends to get uncomfortable, and I’m not sure I could ever lock him up with the intention of leaving him in it just to be cruel.

    He also told me that our marriage has improved him. I believe he means that. Phil missed out on things when he was young. He was raised by a grandparent who indulged him because they were poor she felt bad. Phil was never held accountable for things. He respected authority and never got in trouble, but he was naïve, self-centered and lacked self-discipline. He wanted to change those things. I believe a WLM did him good. He said it too. Phil even began to excel in his career as we started reforming our marriage and when I held him accountable for his actions.

    Thank you for the opportunity to comment anonymously.
    Joan

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