As a follow-up to my post on 'Mindless Slave vs. Productive Slave Companion,' I'd like to share an excerpt from another author's post on female led relationships. I came across this post the other day and thought it was a very fitting example:
"...my partner simply started relying on me too much and became too passive. After a while, I was doing everything for him and he acted as if he was deprived of the ability to make adult decisions."
The author goes on to say that she ultimately ended the relationship because of her boyfriend's extreme passiveness. This really hits home the point I was making in my previous post, that I want my husband to be a companion and not a mindless slave. My husband is submissive but that does not mean he is incapable of making decision and having adult conversations with me. He is capable of doing things on his own and to satisfy me without always being told what to do or having to be punished or motivated by me every step of the way.
When a wife gets caught up in the lifestyle it is easy to find herself doing more commanding than leading, especially when she is taking cues from her husband or being "topped" by him. Most submissive guys are going to embrace this approach because it is their ultimate fantasy to shirk all responsibility and simply be controlled. However, as the example above illustrates, this is not sustainable for the woman. Overtime it becomes burdensome for her and he turns into something that she does not desire.
My advice to women who are embarking on or involved in a WLM/FLR, is to ensure you are leading the relationship and not just commanding it. Leaders empower and motivate others to do things for them. That's the approach you want to employ in your relationship. Giving commands is an important part of the WLM relationship and reinforces your power over him but it should be secondary to leading. Lastly, envision what would be the ideal husband/partner for you and use that as your guide for how you train and shape your partner each year.
As a reference, below is the link to the article I cited above.
When a wife gets caught up in the lifestyle it is easy to find herself doing more commanding than leading, especially when she is taking cues from her husband or being "topped" by him. Most submissive guys are going to embrace this approach because it is their ultimate fantasy to shirk all responsibility and simply be controlled. However, as the example above illustrates, this is not sustainable for the woman. Overtime it becomes burdensome for her and he turns into something that she does not desire.
My advice to women who are embarking on or involved in a WLM/FLR, is to ensure you are leading the relationship and not just commanding it. Leaders empower and motivate others to do things for them. That's the approach you want to employ in your relationship. Giving commands is an important part of the WLM relationship and reinforces your power over him but it should be secondary to leading. Lastly, envision what would be the ideal husband/partner for you and use that as your guide for how you train and shape your partner each year.
As a reference, below is the link to the article I cited above.
https://thinkaloud.net/2018/02/02/everything-you-need-to-know-about-a-female-led-relationship/
-Mz Kaylee
-Mz Kaylee
Totally agree, Mz Kaylee. Great advice to women, and the article was a good read.
ReplyDeleteIf it's okay, about the too much passiveness issue, this would be my advice to men in WLM/FLR based on my experience (might not apply to all):
- Her position is always highest. Men are the ones that have to adapt to being slave/servants/friends/Knights/Kings as she needs.
- Always submit, but respect the timing. Many times submitting is about being there for her, listen to her, etc. and it's not the time for fantasy play. As much as I love being at her feet, if she needs to be hugged protectively that's how I submit.
- Give her room to express all she wants. We have a prayer time but I commonly ask how her soul is doing. This lets her express deeper worries/fears/happiness/experiences, and it lets me know what matters.
- Widen your perspective. We usually focus on play & very few things, but ask her about the people she interacts with. If you have kids, children always matter to her, but also friends/family/etc. I commonly ask: "what happened with X?", "how did it go with Y?".
- Finally, make any of her issues your own, asking what you (or others) could do to move.
Of course you get taken care of too. Yesterday I protectively hugged my Queen to sleep as she opened about something that worried her. Today, as I knelt for her in the morning, I thanked her for last night's talk and as a reward she let me worship her feet beyond the kiss she normally allows.
I agree. Such an example of a submissive or husband displays that he doesn't have an opinion or has no desire to make decisions on his own to any degree. As I mentioned before this post, more unnecessary work is put on the woman.
ReplyDelete-Mike
You just want it both ways. If you are repeatedly stepping on your husband’s desires by depriving him of sexual release, keeping him from seeing his friends, and overloading him with domestic duties, why would he want to jump in and alleviate you of the burdens of dictatorship? You want absolute authority? Fine. Make the decisions and own the outcome. Maybe after keeping your own counsel and seeing things not go so well, you’ll ease up on him. You can demand obedience, but you can’t crush someone and expect their support.
ReplyDeleteUmmm..which post did you read? You've totally missed the point and are making a lot of false statements. Been doing this for 15+ years and we are happy as can be so I think I know what I'm talking about.
DeleteI also agree. The mindless slave shirks responsibility to use his mind for himself and for his Mistress. He is depriving her of the benefits of his intelligence and mental efforts. He is being lazy and irresponsible, in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteI do think my wife wants it both ways without necessarily admitting that. As I've stated, my role now feels like 24/7 maid given the stay-at-home situation and her decision to use the opportunity to have me do 100% of the housework. That said, we still talk, share our feelings and make decisions together, all of which would not be typical to a "mindless slave". But even here I feel like she has it both ways. My one break from housework last night, for instance, was to sit (kneel) at her feet in the living room while we talked for part of the time and she read a book for the rest of the time (all while I moisturized her feet).
ReplyDeleteHaving it both ways does work and is the way it should be. Let's not forget that you guys are the one's that want to be treated like a slave so it not like this is all work and no play for you. If it was really that bad than WLM/FLR would not be a thing. The truth is that not only do you love it but you crave it. So let's flip the perspective a bit - is it fair to the wife that the husband can just not think at all and only do what he is told to do because that's what he gets a thrill from?
ReplyDeleteYes. Because she has claimed absolute authority, and this blog makes clear the overwhelming majority of the time there is no “thrill” for the man. People tell dictators what they want to hear in order to appease them. They don’t give them independent thought and views because they may suffer punishment for not telling her what she wants to hear. That is the nature of autocratic rule. You have 1) the final word with no right of appeal, and 2) unilateral authority to punish harshly. You simply cannot expect candor and independent thought under those circumstances. The safest way will always be to make the empowered person make all decisions. You decided not to print my last comment, but that’s just because you want an echo chamber, and you want things both ways. You have “discipline sessions” where you hit your husband. What can he expect if he makes a decision you are unhappy with? Why would he risk it? It’s the nature of the power imbalance.
DeleteYes, your wife needs absolute authority, otherwise it's not a true Wife Led Marriage. This doesn't mean she has to tell you everything. If something needs cleaning I clean it. If laundry piles up I do it. I don't ask permission. My wife has set boundaries that I stay within. If a decision is within my skill set then I make it. If a step breaks going up to my deck I don't wait for her to tell me to fix it. The idea is to make life easier for her. Yes, there are punishments, but I have never gotten one that I thought I didn't deserve. My wife loves me and wouldn't do anything to truly hurt me. I know this and trust her to make our relationship better. As far as the "thrill" I get it in spades, but really it makes no difference to me as seeing her thrilled is my goal. Good comment though. Stay safe- Alan
DeleteJames - in fairness to our readers, I will disclose that 99% of your comments are never published because they are irrational, take my words out of context and exaggerate what I say in a very negative way. 100% of your comments do not support WLM so why do you bother to keep coming back to a website the supports WLM? I am not going waste people's time with having to read comments from someone who is against WLM because that is not the point of this blog. So rather then me responding to your exaggerations above, if you do believe in WLM, why don't you tell us what you think is the right way to run a WLM?
DeleteFirst, a couple of your regulars seem to agree with my “having it both ways” premise even if they disagree about the dynamic description. However, i could readily support that with numerous examples of harsh punishments from this blog and others. My premise was logical. You disparaged it but did not respond.
DeleteSecond, I am not opposed to WLM. However, I am opposed to mean spiritedness and cruelty. I see if here and on sImilar blogs (like the “Real Women Don’t Do Housework” blog you have been associated with and from the women I have encountered in real life who practice WLM. One need look no further than the melt down a husband of one of your contributors’ (Joan?) had over her harsh orgasm denial. She then blamed him and punished him after the meltdown. Nice.
I believe I recall one of your posts where you expressed the view that it was OK if your husbands were unhappy as long as they were not “deeply unhappy” as well as one about binding and gagging your husbands and leaving them alone in a room for an extended period of time so you could have a break from enduring their presence. You did show a touch of compassion by recommending that the woman take some steps to prevent accidental asphyxiation. Very charitable.
If you would like a more comprehensive list, I can go back through the blog and put something together.
The short answer concerning “the right way” is with more real concern for the well being and happiness of the husbands. The theme of the blog seems to be to run with a man’s potent fantasy and leverage it to create a much easier life for the woman and a fairly oppressive one for the man, including by loading him up with domestic duties, denying him orgasms for long periods of time, restricting his social activities. Some of these play into the fantasy, but it often goes further and the tone is often very callous and uncaring. There seems to be nothing inherent in the WLM concept that requires that, but it is still often there.
I get the fantasy and that some of these things cater to it to a certain extent, but then go well beyond that.
Let's clarify a few things right from the start
Delete1. I am not associated with "Real Women Don't do Housework." That is a false statement. The only blog I am associated with is my blog. I may have posted on other blogs but that does not mean I am associated with the blog or agree with everything that is posted on those blogs. Furthermore, comments from other readers and guests posts that I publish do not always reflect my views. I welcome different opinions for discussion (My blog is not an echo chamber as you suggested previously).
2. I do not support mean spiritedness at all so that is another false statement you are making about me. I promote loving and caring WLM. What I write about may seem cruel but to the submissive husband it is what he desires. If you take my examples out of context (which you always do) they will sound cruel and mean spirited. However, if you read my entire posts and are a regular reader of my blog then you should know that I promote loving female authority and that the domination is done as a motivator and even reward for men and not to be mean spirited. IF you are not submissive this is hard to understand.
Are you submissive James? Are you in a bad relationship or had a bad experience with a dominant woman? I am having a hard time understanding why you continually interpret what I am saying incorrectly. I agree there are women out there who dominate in a mean spirited way with little regard for the man but that is not what I support.
Hi James
DeleteI think I understand your perspective that the circumstances appear unfair or unhappy for the husband.
First, I'd mention that at the end of the day, it's a consensual relationship. None of these acts involve coercion from what I've read. Moreover, most of the posts appear to be the men retelling their experience, with a degree of excitement.
I think it's difficult to explain why men may desire to be subjected to a dominant woman and still find value and reward from the relationship. And to others in such relationships, it's natural.
Regardless if it's a traditional relationship or WLM, one person can't justify to say it's a "good" or "bad" relationship because they all come in different dynamics. And categorizing them as right or wrong is a bit futile.
I literally asked my wife to be more controlling, to give me more chores, and to take away social activities if need be. We've also discussed long term orgasms control as perhaps necessary.
Many find such efforts needed, caring, and a way to strengthen a relationship... To merely submit to the wife.
I don't think this is a great forum to persuade anybody that a type of WLM is right or wrong. I'm not sure you'll accomplish much.
I think it's great to share ideas. And if something works, make it your own and be inspired. If something is too extreme, merely pass on it and know it's not for you.
- Mike
To answer the questions, I have considered myself sexually submissive and have enjoyed submissive activities for decades. I have questioned or struggled with it since stumbling across DD and FLR blogs for the first time five years ago. Once these activities become real life, it seems very different and often looks quasi-consensual. If I engage in a role play scene and have a safeword, it is for my enjoyment. What I see here and to a far greater extent on DD blogs is situations where the man is put through things he absolutely does not enjoy and does not want to do because he gave general consent. As I mentioned above this blog had a post a year or two ago that distinguished situations where the husband was I happy (ok) from those in which he was “deeply” unhappy (not ok). It seems like there is a bargain where in exchange for getting to indulge (at times) a potent fantasy, the husband has to endure painful, oppressive, and/or humiliating things that he does not want to endure. I can understand why a guy would endure it given how potent the fantasy is. What I take issue with is the empowered party abusing the power entrusted to her.
DeleteThere is a sort of generalized “consent” but that is given at the beginning but it is not given on an on-going basis for each adverse action a wife takes. I said above I could go through the blog and pull examples of them out. I mentioned a few. That is where it seemed “mean spirited.” It seems as if once the husband gives that generalized consent, it’s anything goes in terms of what the wife does to him. You have a recent example from someone during this pandemic who mentioned his wife working him night and day on the weekend. I gave the other example of the man driven to a melt down by a wife that refused to let him have orgasms.
I have an enormous amount of empathy for guys who have submissive desires. Like many here I had to deal with them in the pre-Internet world when they were way more taboo than they are now. There was a huge fear of revealing them to partners. And what I see is guys giving this sort of generalized consent because the fantasy is so strong and being subjected to things they do not seem to want to be subjected fo, but it’s OK as long as they are not “deeply” unhappy.
“Consent” does not answer everything. There are things I would never do to another person even if they “consented.” So, when someone empowers you as is the case here, I believe you have an obligation not to be cruel or mean-spirited regardless of whether you have “consent” to be that way, and I keep seeing instances of DD and FLR where that obligation is not met. Someone else on this thread said “with great power comes great responsibility,” and that includes the responsibility to be kind and caring. I have seen many instances here where that appears not to be the case.
It is with that mindset that I interpret what you say here. You say I am misinterpreting it and taking it out of context. That is one possibility. The other is that you just don’t like seeing the implications of what you say or do to your husband or what you advocate that other women do to theirs explicitly laid out.
My relationship is good. Although, it is not a great outlet for these desires because I have to take a real “caretaker” role.
I would also note that the very serious and cautionary tone of the April 13 guest post by Alan seems to corroborate at least some of what I am saying here.
DeleteHi James
DeleteWhat you seem to be describing with your hypothetical relationship examples could be construed as abusive. Then yes, I'd agree it's not a healthy relationship. Such circumstances could happen on a WLM or traditional relationship. I don't think any WLM supporter would agree to abuse their partner to the point they're seriously unhappy.
On the other hand, nobody can understand the frame of mind if the man enjoys the submissive acts/punishments and views it as fantasy.
A number of men willingly and happily pay for dominatrix, BDSM sessions, which involve much more intense activities, such as the ones that can occur in a WLM.
People stay in jobs where they work 14 hours a day.
People exercise until they vomit at times.
People spend about 12 hours a day behind electronic devices.
None of these things one would say are healthy, but they find value in doing so. All still have a choice to continue or not. If they can't, then perhaps they need help. And that's not a consensual relationship.
But again, those men still write posts here exclaiming how they still wish to happily serve their woman, with a sense of pride and accomplishment.
-Mike
Let's take the example of the man driven to a melt down because of orgasm denial. It was a comment in the feb 20th post. If you read the entire comment that was not the intention of the wife and she was freaked out by it and had a talk with her husband to make sure it did not happen again. Do you see how you are taking words out of context and twisting around the meaning? I have yet to hear a concrete example from you from my posts (not a guest post or comment because i am not here to defend others) about making someone endure pain and humiliation that they do not want to endure or consent to. Punishments are the only exception. You are presuming everything is mean spirited. If the wife is mean spirited then that is a bad relationship and the guy should get out of it.
DeleteI disagree that I was twisting the meaning. She freaked out at his reaction, not at her conduct. That level of orgasm denial was inherently mean. That he melted down should have come as no surprise.
DeleteHer posts are rife with a mean dismissive attitude toward him and SHE punished HIM after the melt down. She should have been begging for forgiveness. She showed little or no contrition. Punishing him under those circumstances is appalling.
As you are now pushing the issue, I will take the time and pull up the examples for you personally. I have frequently commented on them as they have occurred. There was one a few years ago where you forced him to go out in public dressed a certain way that could have potentially exposed him to public ridicule, and as I have now said twice in this thread, you had a post where you explicitly said it was OK to make your husband unhappy as long as he was not “deeply unhappy” which speaks volumes and informs how I interpret your words and the intent behind what you say and do to him.
I will again note that there is a big difference between “wanting to endure” something and “consenting” to it which likely plays no small role in our dispute over how I interpret what you say. Query how you would even know whether he “wants” to endure something when you are only concerned with whether he is “deeply” unhappy as opposed to being merely “unhappy.”
Mike: I totally get that about the BDSM scenes (I have participated many times but am a light player). However, I have seen many descriptions on this blog and others of things done to men which clearly indicated that there was no desire to endure them. They were done under the umbrella of the generalized “consent” he gave.
DeleteI have been challenged to find examples on this blog of such acts attributable to its author, and I will. I can tell you of one from the femdom101 blog that has stuck with me where the wife forced her husband to eat magazine pages because she was upset with him. I sincerely doubt he “wanted” that and when pressed on the issue, not once did she assert that he did.
I have seen all sorts of intense things at BDSM parties (I have been to many), but those were masochists who explicitly wanted those things done to them, and they had a safeword to stop it immediately if they decided they did not. Not only are safewords rare in FLR/DD, they are frequently scorned for the exact reason they exist: to give the disempowered person a way to stop what is being done to them. Also, I rarely see an FLR husband identify as a masochist.
You guys are also incredibly forgiving because the fantasy that drives this is so powerful. I have seen guys forgive being beaten severely for things they didn’t even do, which I can only attribute to the strength of—and their need to feed—the fantasy,
James - I did not see anywhere in the comment where she punished him. She did push too far but it was a learning experience for both of them. don't see any indication that there was a mean intention by the wife and my impression was that the guy was enjoying it until he reached a breaking point. I did not see any indication from the guy (who wrote the comment) that he he thought she was terrible. The important part was they talked about it a learned from it and moved on. Remove the sexual piece and situations like this happen in any relationship. That is life. This is consensual and it is a dynamic that guys enjoy. You seem to not want to acknowledge that. You are making hypothetical assumptions about other people so there is no credibility in anything you've said so far. If other people feel they are being abused then let them speak. Do you have any real experience yourself that you can talk about? What are you trying to accomplish by all this?
DeleteI confused two incidents. In the one I was actually referring to, he was under a lot of stress and having a difficult time. He began complaining and her punishments were not working (according to her). She asked him what was wrong, and he told her about the work stress he was under and that he needed time for himself. She made some changes and then punished him for failing to tell her sooner:
Delete“ So, he was punished (a little) for not speaking up earlier: I made him insert a butt plug (medium size) and without any complaints his plug found its warm temporary home (what has a WLM done to him?). Then I made him take me out for ice cream. We sat outside at one of the picnic tables on the side of the parlor. I took my old time eating a sundae. He had a large vanilla cone, and his butt ached between the hard-wooden bench we were sitting on and the butt plug that was snug in his rear.”
The man is having trouble and fails to speak up soon enough In this kind of relationship and is PUNISHED? That is lousy, and it doesn’t show real concern for him to punish him after he has been suffering under the load of work stress.
That was quoted from Joan’s 02.24 post on your orgasm denial thread.
To your last question, I have had real life encounters. A woman I know was in an FLR. She had some sort of fight with her boyfriend. These are her words. I have corroborating emails. She told him that she would only stay with him if he submitted to a beating. I told her I was horrified, which I was. She said “He can stop it at any time, but then he loses me.” That is monstrous. She is a well known pro disciplinarian and FLR devotee (she could never be in any other relationship because he needs absolute power). She literally told me that If he could not tolerate her beating he would lose her.
Another one: I met a woman who told me that she was visiting and friend and heard her “disciplining” (beating) her husband. She was unhappy with her own husband and told him that he had to submit to the same thing or she would leave him.
Do you want names and an affidavit? Or is that not good enough either?
I get you reject my credibility. I reject yours. I am taking what is said at face value. You just ignore what is inconvenient (like your “deeply unhappy” post) and attack my credibility. I sure you know about the example I gave Mike from Femdom101 because the blogs have had cross-posting.
What am I trying to accomplish? I don’t know. I just identify with guys having these desires and like to call out cruelty and meanness. As I said, consent does not answer everything. There is still an obligation to be decent and to avoid cruelty or disregard for the disempowered party. What I have noticed is that while someone like you will come at me as you are, I inevitably get one or two who tell me I have made some decent points. I don’t expect you to be one of them.
Sitting on a bench with a butt plug is hardly a punishment. The guy probably enjoyed it. And once again, the examples you provided are about other people so like you've done with my words, you are likely exaggerating the situation and taking it out of context so it's hypothetical. You really have no first hand experience so you are making a fuss over something you don't understand. Sounds to me like you are seeking out everything negative and if that is your goal then that is what you are going to find always. There are many positive comments on my blog from guys who say they love WLM. In fact there are much more guy comments then women comments. If you read my posts and really understand the meaning of the posts you will see that I am not mean spirited and the type of control that I promote is in the best interest of both the husband and wife. If you can't see that, then we are just going to have to agree to disagree and move on. You can continue to point out the negative, but what is that going to accomplish? You say you believe in WLMN but all you do is try to disprove it. How about contributing in a positive way?
DeleteEvery time you press me for details, I tell you and give you more, and then you tell me I'm lying, so yes there is no point in talking. You're running me in circles. I was trying to engage you honestly and directly by responding to your questions, including by stating when I conflated two episodes. So be it. It's never enough. That definitely informs my view of things. Hopefully, I'm the only one you repeatedly call a liar.
DeleteFor anyone else who might read this, those two women said exactly what I said they did. The "pro" and I had bitter arguments over what she did to that guy. She also hid behind "consent" when her clear motive was simply revenge. I have the e-mails to prove it. As for "Joan", her expressed intent was to punish him, and she acknowledged the pain it caused him. Maybe it wasn't "that bad," but that was her intent. There was no kindness or niceness behind it. She didn't do it to excite him or make him feel better. Certainly you have provided no suggestion to the contrary. Instead, you assumed he enjoyed it and then accused me of being "hypothetical". That's rich. So, dismiss away.
If you are unwilling to believe that anyone vested with such power abuses it, there is nothing I can say to persuade you, which is exactly why I call attention to it: People who answer to no one will never examine their conduct. My "pro" stopped at "consent." That was all she needed to green light her beating of that guy. She never looked at it until she saw how horrified I was at it, and she had a hard time reconciling it with any sort of decent motive.
And here's the thing. I have had strong femdom fantasies likely since before you were born. It has always been my biggest turn on. However, the types of things those two women told me about and blogs like this have ruined it for me in a lot of ways by making the meanness real.
In the spirit of intellectual honesty (which mattes alot to me, no matter how you vilify me and paint me as a liar), I will say that nothing I have read about you actually doing has been anywhere near the top of the scale, certainly not near what the two women I met in real life did. However, sometimes you seem to sanction or condone things that do not necessarily seem to be motivated by kindness if only be commenting nicely in response to something that is not so nice.
I really have only one message in all this: If someone gives you that kind of power, be kind with it. If a guy's "kink" is really to do something that normally appears "adverse", then great. Mine is. However, don't do something to him just because you can out of spite, revenge, or because you had a bad day. When I see things written that suggest a real meanness in attitude, I say something. Maybe I'm wrong sometimes. Oddly enough, however, many times the women rarely say "No, he really likes it. I never would have believed it, but he does. I only do it for him." Instead, they double down on having consent to do whatever they did to him. I think pointing that out IS a positive thing. With some who can handle a bit of dissent, we end up in a good intellectual discussion. That can't happen here obviously but it does on another blog, but she is intensely self-reflective.
I have had pros go way over the line with me and inflict emotional and physical damage. They were not FLRs, but that's as close as I have gotten personally to one, and it certainly did not make me anxious to embrace it.
Mz Kaylee,
Delete"Sitting on a bench with a butt plug is hardly a punishment. The guy probably enjoyed it."
I share here anonymously because my wife and I want it that way. If I have to spell it out truth is yes, OK, I enjoyed the plug. And, yes, I suggested play with plugs in the beginning. I'm a big boy. I'm living the life I want, and it is unfair to have my wife criticized. My wife never forced me into a submissive position in our marriage. I am submissive. I might not even be in a WLM had there have been no internet, or if my wife had not eventually indulged my kinky requests. Reading about it ignited a strong interest to me, a craving. A WLM added exciting and kinky passion. I was an introvert and very selfish. I even masturbated a lot, probably a lack of self control that developed into selfish habit. I get just few orgasms in a year now, but fewer and more memorable is better. I like this too. I have my safe words too, and on a couple of occasions I didn't use them when I should have. Such was the case with the meltdown I once described.
I'll never forget the look on my wife's face when I told her I wanted to try a WLM. I have a passionate and kinky marriage today. I worked with several men over the years who complained about there wives, or dropped obvious hints about negative things in their relationships. One man said his marriage was boring. How about me? I sat there listening, shifting to make sure my pink panties remained unseen. I can't wait to get home. You know, there's a lot of regular husband and wife activities and exchanges in my marriage, just like there is in yours. Then, there's the excitement of not exactly knowing when Mistress will appear, or what she's going to do about the fact that I raised my voice or made a smart remark (and of course, I NEVER to those things on purpose :-). There's a constant electricity. Sometimes the current is low, sometimes high. I love it.
My wife controls the money, and this works for us. I've begged Mistress for something and heard "No," only to get it given to me during our holidays. That's part of the fetish, part of the extreme role play. I wouldn't be in the relationship if I didn't love it. I won't say anything further on the matter except that have a mind and I'm self sufficient and very happy.
Regards,
Phil
Thank you for posting this Phil. This is helpful insight into the submissive dynamic. I completely understand what you are saying but it took me many years of talking to my husband and reading about other submissive men to really understand it. It is not easy to understand. I am hoping other women read your comment as it is great insight. Thank you.
DeleteJames – Thank you for sharing your own experience and something that is credible. I am sorry you were subjected to emotional and physical harm by a dom. I agree with you that it was wrong. The words of caution that you provided are spot on.
DeleteSomething that is important to understand is that a relationship with a pro dom or a "lifestyle mistress" is very different then a relationship in a Wife Led Marriage. A pro dom's primary intent with a man is to dominate him and not to form a meaningful relationship with him. She dominates to make money and/or because she really gets off on the power of controlling men and/or because she likes to see men suffer (a sadist). All of these motives can easily lead to a situation that becomes too extreme for the man or even harmful because she is dominating for her own desires and there is no love in that type of relationship.
A WLM is a completely different situation. It is based on a marriage where both people love each other and are committed to spending their life together. A wife who loves her husband does not want to abuse him or hurt him. Many wives struggle with being dominant because it is counter-intuitive to how they want to treat their husband. The biggest complaint I hear from submissive husbands is that “my wife is not tough enough” or “she is not strict enough with me.” My husband would say the same thing.
I am glad you recognized that what I write about is no where near the level of domination that you experienced. That is purposeful. I do not go to those extremes and that is also a difference between and WLM and pro doms or lifestyle mistresses. The degree of punishment and domination is usually much lower in a WLM. While my husband says he wants more strictness or toughness, if he went to a pro dom, he’d probably come back crying.
The goal of my blog is to promote and educate on how to have a healthy WLM or FLR. My blog is not about dealing with pro dom’s and mistresses. That is an important distinction because there is a much different dynamic and intent in a WLM versus a pro dom/Mistress relationship.
After all the back and forth with you and me, I truly believe we are on the same side and want the same things. Your experience is a good cautionary tale for others. I also agree with you that there are many blogs that give bad advice. That is another reason I started my blog. I thought there were very few credible and helpful blogs for WLMs out there.
Based on your experience with the dom, I can see how you can perceive things that I write about as abuse. Hopefully my explanation above can help you understand that domination in a WLM is a much different approach in a WLM.
James — I want to respond to a point you raised around consent, in particular, your view that consent “does not answer everything”. By this, I gather you mean that consent does not justify everything that is consented to. This is a topic I could go on about at great length, but I’ll be brief as I can.
DeleteThe right to choose whether or not to give consent around what can happen to us is at the core of personal freedom, and placing limits on what we can and cannot consent to, including by failing to respect a person’s consent as meaningful, undermines that right. There are many cases where limits are needed on our freedom to refuse to consent to actions to be taken toward us in the public interest. On the other hand, there are very few restrictions on what we can give consent for. The only justification for a limit on a person’s ability to give consent is to protect that person against his or her own choices (paternalism), and for that reason, society is very hesitant to limit our freedom in that way.
Except in cases where the stakes are extremely high, the only time it is appropriate to treat a person as incapable of giving valid consent is when he or she is incapable of making a meaningful decision about whether or not to consent, either because the person lacks the capacity to appreciate the consequences of the decision (e.g., the person is mentally impaired or too young), or because the person is at a disadvantage that significantly interferes with his or her ability to choose freely (e.g., the consequences of refusing consent are unfairly severe, or the person is being deceived). Unless one of these circumstances applies, it unjustifiably undermines a person’s autonomy to deem that the person’s consent is invalid or insufficient to justify the thing he or she has consented to, or to take the position that a person acting on that consent is wronging the person who gave it.
I appreciate that there are FLR/WLM relationships that are abusive, and those relationships are not okay, but it is important not to base the cutoff on your own personal tastes. Any man who has submissive desires wants something that many others would label as abusive. It can’t be the case that the things you desire are fine, but a relationship that takes things further than you would want your relationship to go is necessarily abusive, or that a woman who is more dominant, controlling, or mean than you would enjoy, or who enjoys her role for reasons other than satisfying the man’s desires, is automatically on the wrong side of morality. I have seen many examples of FLRs/WLMs that are a little (or a lot) over-the-top for my tastes, or where the woman has been too mean for my liking (including on this site), or that lacked the emotional connection I value, but it really is unfair to label a relationship or woman as abusive when there is no reason to believe there is no valid consent. It is also not doing the guy any favours to regard his consensual relationship that he is happy in as abusive, or to regard him as someone who is abused.
I’m not saying that everything said on this site by Mz Kaylee or people leaving comments is okay (or that any of it isn’t okay). There is also more to be said on the nature of consent. I just think that consent is a more important factor than you suggest.
Mz Kaylee,
DeleteYou said, "This is helpful insight into the submissive dynamic," in response to a comment made by my husband. I've been trying figure out my submissive husband right along. He asked for a WLM ten years ago. Phil has enjoyed his submissive role far more than I originally thought he would. I offered him a week of freedom to have as many orgasms as be wanted and he wasn’t thrilled about it. I’ve asked him more than once if he wanted to continue our relationship as it is and he consistently said he “yes”. I even asked him if he felt orgasm denial and teasing was over the top sometimes, and he said he loves the way it feels. I don’t think I’ll completely understand the submissive dynamic.
On the subject of orgasms, he’s not getting ruined orgasms starting this year. He won't be allowed more orgasms because he already gets an orgasm approximately every two months (sometimes longer in between, sometimes shorter). That’s sifficient. I do want him to have full releases because he is in his mid-50s. It’s mainly for his prostate health. This might be something for a dominant woman to consider as a husband gets older. As much as he and I enjoy orgasm control and he enjoys the kink I believe that it’s better to be safe than sorry and I'm letting him drain those pipes.
Phil isn't home free. Oh no! He must still have my permission to orgasm. I reserve the right to deny him. I've also come up with a trivia game and he must answer a question I will ask correctly to earn an orgasm. If he misses, no orgasm. If he correctly answers, he gets a toe curler. To be fair, the questions are challenging but not fixed against him. If he fails after five consecutive tries, he gets an orgasm on the fifth night. It isn’t my intent to torment him, though missing a question will frustrate him and make him leak if I’ve worked him up in bed. The rules aren’t all mine. They primarily came from Phil; he suggested them. I approved them with two additions. I decided that he’s going to be required to wear a bra and panty set on orgasm nights. That’s my rule. The next day, he’ll likely be asked to wear his small butt plug for some length of time. They are both reminders of who his boss is. It’s also kinky fun for him. Phil answered his trivia question on the first night and enjoyed a toe curler. The next morning he inserted the plug and reported it to me. I didn’t even need to ask. I was a stern Mistress and had him kneel on the bed and checked to make sure the plug was there. I wiggled it around a little and told him, “wear it for two hours.” “Yes, Mistress.” I didn’t notice much or a drop in his submissive attitude.
On the issue of mindless slave, my answer is “No.” I prefer him to be a companion and partner.
Stay Well,
Joan
I think it's fair to the wife because you're giving her all the power. One perspective can be that the power is a responsibility. And perhaps it may be one that requires work to keep the husband submissive. But imagine the woman enjoys that position.
ReplyDelete-Mike
Mike - thank you for your honest opinion. The issue is that most women do not want this. It is the guy who wants to give up all the power. You have to find a balance in your relationship that works for both partners. My guess is the the WLMs that never get off the ground are mostly the ones that can not find this balance. Also, power is not about telling what people to do. It is about influencing other to do things for you and making them want to do them for you.
DeleteI am a little confused by some of the comments. Of course your wife can have it both ways. The whole idea is that your making her life easier without regard of what your getting out of it. If your given a responsibility then this is yours from now on. I was told to keep the kitchen spotless. If there is a plate in the sink I don't wait to be told to rinse it and put it in the dish washer. This is part of the job I have been given. Much like at my job I didn't wait for my boss to come out and tell me to wait on a client.
ReplyDeleteMaybe a Wife Led Marriage is not for you. Let me give you an example: My wife calls me from another room, she is at her computer,I wait patiently until she is finished. She turns in her computer chair to face me and says" I have decided the floors are your responsibility, keep them clean, damp mop once a week, and scrub them once a month; do you understand". Me "yes ma'am". If an interaction with your wife doesn't tell you all you need to know about the floors and make you at least a little hard then a Wife Led Marriage is not your thing.
Some aspects of it are exciting. However, some seem really mean-spirited. To take your example, the “interaction” might get me hard, After my third weekend of scrubbing floors and being alone while she goes out, I would feel unloved, disregarded. and disposable. However, regarding the topic of the post, it still stands to reason that if you are subject to someone’s unilateral authority, including the authority to hurt you physically (assuming you are not a masochist), it seems logical to go to great lengths to avoid the risk of making a decision that she ultimately disagrees with and leave it to her. There seems to be little freedom to err.
DeleteJust to be clear nothing she is doing is abusive. We have been together since we were teenagers forty years ago. The reason she is in charge is because she makes better decisions than I do. I would trust her with my life. I have very clear rules, as long as I don't break them all is fine. I'm always warned first. If I am stupid enough to continue that's when punishments come in. Much like the rules of the road. I didn't have any input in making them, but if I go by a five foot sign that says 45 at 69 I do so at my own peril. My wife does not like punishing me and I don't like being punished. I don't give her many opportunities, but we both understand that rules with no consequences, for breaking, are not really rules. As far as your example of home scrubbing floors while she is out with her friends. Hey, I'm submissive this is my dream. In my case at least your are feeling sorry for somebody who is getting everything they ever dreamed of. If you had a bad mistress somewhere in the past I'm sorry. Bad wives and bad husbands show up over 50% of the time in vanilla marriages. I'm sure Wife Led Marriages are no different. My wife has gotten me this far not laying a hand on me. I assume some day I will have a big enough transgression that she will, but in the end who's fault would that be. Good points James, but in my case way off the mark.Take care and stay safe- Alan
DeleteMy wife would never want a mindless slave. It’s fun to hop to it and do her bidding (I recently did sex slave for a whole day, longer really). Its kinky role playing and an expression of my love and enjoyment of sacrifices. I was actually exhausted that last time I was the 'poor submissive husband'. My wife was equally exhausted from bossing me all day :-). We both turned in by 8PM. Punishment is part of it too. I asked to be kept in line and my wife does, though she’s not some cane wielding sadist by any means. She gives me reminders in other ways which will remain private.
DeleteJust to clarify it, I love my marriage, my FLR. I was never forced into it. I was a major nudge about it before my wife would consider it. She makes far better decisions than I do, and it made sense to let her run the show. I was raised and later lived without structure and often ignored my wife (A friend told me not long ago she was still a strikingly attractive woman, and that he was jealous). There's some kinky activities to go along with it that I look forward too. She wants me home when work ends. Boohoo. I don’t want to stay away. Mistress gets NO argument from me.
My wife also knows fairness. I’ve been allowed to do many things such as go on overnight trips to fish, go on hikes with friends (and would be this summer but it’s all up in the air now) and even buy expensive collectibles. On being allowed to go on trips away, my wife has kicked me out to go! She wants me to have a break, bond with friends, and clean fish far away from her. She also needs the break too. A conservative relative, a lady the same age as my wife, said she’d be uncomfortable letting her husband do such things. Well, my wife can trust me. She’s often puts on the face of the tough Mistress when I ask for something. Many times, after I’ve heard a resounding “No!” for some reason and my begging has done no good (e.g., I failed to please her in some way) that “something” often materializes for my birthday or around the holidays. I think of it as role play on steroids! It’s better that my wife controls my spending. I was a wild spender and never thought about saving, and never thought about others.
As for sex, I had a bad habit: masturbation. It was due to a pattern of laziness. I even neglected my wife when it came to intimacy. Again, it was laziness. When I asked Ma’am (lol) to control my orgasms, she did. While I get only a few orgasms, they are absolutely fantastic! My wife decided not to ruin my orgasms starting this year. A ruined orgasm is a tremendous tease for me, but she wants me to “clean the pipes thoroughly” because of my age. The strangest items I own in our trunk of toys that my wife indulged me on is a chastity device, which we might upgrade, and butt plugs. I’ve used them both. Butt plugs are an acquired preference. I was once denied for a long time, and I was doing some very rough but wonderful PIV sex. I simply lost it because I didn’t want to orgasm. My wife calmed me down and decided to let me orgasm when I was in a better frame of mind. Looking back, I’m glad we did it like that. It ended up being an orgasm never to be forgotten.
I do most of the housework. I like it and did most of it from the beginning anyway. I’m quite happy with her as the Mistress, but it would NOT be enjoyment for me as the mindless slave 24/7.
Regards,
Phil
Fair enough, Alan. Do you really want the punishments or do you merely tolerate them because that is part of “the deal”? Even though you don’t think any of what you listed as abusive, do you want all of it? Your post really did not suggest to me that you were happy with everything you described even if if didn’t cross whatever line you draw for “abuse.” It seems like you were telling a grim cautionary tale to warn others that they may end up pretty unhappy with an FLR. Maybe I missed something.
DeleteWell no I don’t like the punishments that is why I avoid them, but I also realize that without them rules are merely a suggestion. I want a real Wife Led Marriage. I don’t want fantasy. I understood going into this that there should be no expectation of equitability. It’s not like there is a punishment every five minutes. As long as I stay within the boundaries she has set there is no problem. If you want he real experience there has to be a trust that your wife is doing things that are making things better for both of you. The only reason for caution to others is that if all it was to them is fantasy they may get more than they really wanted. In my case I got what I always wanted in a tidal wave. I just see where it could overwhelm someone who only viewed it through the eyes of sex. As far as being happy with all of it, I guess you could say that about anything. A vanilla marriage, a car, a pair of boots. All I can tell you is right now this fits me like a glove. Probably no such thing as one size fits all, but we have made it our own and are happy with the results so far. Take care -Alan
DeleteHello Mz Kaylee and mike.
ReplyDeleteI have found your statement “ The issue is that most women do not want this” to be very true in my experiences and relationships over the years. Male submission to the woman of his heart even on the best of terms is rarely understood and or excepted by most women. Even the most powerful and dominant women seem to be looking for that man that is her equal rather than a “ mindless slave” or even a “productive slave companion “ . My wife is an excellent example of such a woman. She is naturally dominate to the very core of her being but longs for the traditional male that will conquer daily . The contrast between what she believes she wants and what actually makes her happy is stark. Unfortunately, I think this is pretty common in a WLM and is probably the source of many of the failed attempts couples find themselves in. In reality how do you separate the mindless slave from a productive slave ? How do you balance complete submission with the idea of having it or both ways. Finding that balance can be very frustrating and seem impossible at times . I had never really given thought to the concept of cuckolding in a WLM until I started seeing the duplicity of desires that women seem to display . This is why I now believe that the evolution of the Cuckoldress in our changing social norms is a parallel to the WLM movement. As women become even more powerful in their homes and careers some have found that having a faithful and submissive husband at home Is even better with the freedom to have the strong powerful lover on the side . I know this is a challenging concept but deep in submission it is very difficult for a husband to fulfill both roles that “ having it all” may require.
Our WLM is pretty much a failed idea at this point . We have returned to the traditional way , sharing a house and not much else . I experienced a very real taste of compete submission in allowing her the freedom to pursue a past lover . It was an emotional roller coaster for sure but I can honestly say that we have never closer than we were at that time. Ultimately she retreated back to the security of the known and rejected the whole idea of a WLM. I am polishing up on my dominant skills and all seems to be in order. I guess it is true LOL “ Most women do not want this” ! It is a hard sell for sure!
Take care
John Dalton
I find there's a lot of truth to this and I'd love to hear Mz Kaylee's thoughts in a separate post. Namely, the "duplicity of desires" comment. I suspect many "dominant" women are turned on by the notion that they can temporarily be dominated themselves, whereas most "submissive" men don't harbor, at least to the same degree, the same desire (or ability!) to ever truly "switch". To that end I know it would be hard for my wife to be able to ever see me as a conqueror, having spent so much time and energy "training" me to serve. This goes in part to the complexity (superiority?) of the female brain, imo. What men see as frustrating (i.e. women thinking they want one thing while actually wanting something else) is actually a function of the nuance and subtlety of the female mind.
DeleteHello Tim;
DeleteThis is an interesting discussion and like you I would also like to hear comments from Mz Kaylee and other female readers on this subject. I wonder if the duplicity of desires that we see in women is simply part of the instinctive design . In the name of equality , as a society we have feminized the male over the past generation while we have encouraged women to take on more masculine role. Could it be that as men turn away from their aggression and masculine traits women are finding the perfect mates yet instinctively still needing the strong dominant male of the past ? I have taken on both roles with very different women over the years but would find it almost impossible to even role play the dominant with a woman I had given my submission to . I think this is why I have begun to embrace the concept of cuckolding . Deep in submission I simply cannot suddenly become the all powerful male ready to sweep her off her feet to fulfill a very temporal desire. I AM a strong and powerful male ready to defend my QUEEN in any situation that life brings our way but no matter how powerful I become I am always subject to her in my submission .
Take care
John Dalton
Hi John
ReplyDeleteI'd like to hear more. Can you say what the difficulties were you had with the balance in the WLM? Do you think you'll go back?
And how is the relationship now, for better or worse?
I'd agree a bit with cuckolding. How did that dynamic work with you and her? I thought she would enjoy the many freedoms.
Thanks
- Mike
Hi Mike, most our difficulties came from her reluctant to be consistent in her dominance . It was an on off kind of dynamite that was really crazy.
DeleteShe loved the closeness and the security of the WLM but could never completely accept her role . She is very dominant naturally but just couldn’t wrap her head around something that was so backwards to what she had always been taught. I was not really looking for the kink side but rather a relationship that enabled me to find happiness in serving the woman I loved . She rejected the whole concept and considered me weak in my need for submission.
I think the cuckolding is a very natural evolution of this lifestyle and almost inevitable at some level as the dynamic progresses. Given the dangers involved, I think that it is unlikely that most women in the lifestyle will ever actually take another lover but her assertion of her freedom to do so is almost as powerful.
My wife had a lifelong crush on a man from her past that became available after a divorce . He contacted her and in the freedom of her dominance she continued the flirtation as a challenge to my submission. It was exciting and scary all at the same time but it became very real when she choose to visit the city he lived in with only slightly veiled plans to see him . I really have no idea whether she actually spent time with him or not but the experience was mind blowing and very exciting for both of us. I have never been more deeply in love and she has never looked so beautiful .
That was about a year ago , I believe her contact with him has ended and along with our WLM. I really do not believe her experience with him really had that much effect on our relationship . I think her time and desires for him along with my loving acceptance may have caused her to question the whole concept of dominance and submission in marriage . I think she felt tremendous guilt with the Un-fairness of our relationship and retreated back to the security of a traditional marriage.
Our relationship is pretty dull and loveless when compared to where we were before. I miss the excitement of our past and I really do not expect to ever return to those wonderful times. I have lived most of my life as a dominant and would be happy to live in that role again to the find the love and passion we once had. Unfortunately, this does not work either because in her natural dominance she completely rejects submission.
I hope everything works out in your life and marriage. The one piece of advise that I would give every couple starting in a WLM is to focus on the expressions of dominance and submission in your everyday life . The passion and love will grow and become life giving as each one embraces their role in reality rather than fantasy. There is nothing wrong with the kinky play but it must be an expression of real dominance or submission rather than the source or motivation .
Take care
John Dalton
Hi John
ReplyDeleteYour words are encouraging. Thank you. We'll have to stay connected somehow. I'd like to see how you're doing in the future.
I'm sorry to hear that the WLM didn't work as you hoped. Perhaps she will see how happier you were then or alsshe mayo miss some of the virtues and liberties she received.
Cuckolding may be an idea to explore. It is fascinating. I think my wife, like yours, is more uncertain of the idea. I thought she would be extremely angry and furious when I brought up the topic once. She surprisingly was not.
As you mentioned, we're just figuring out the strengths of a WLM that work for us. She loves being in charge naturally. And I love to serve her. We're both happy although it may seem more of a tame WLM than most others.
-Mike
Hi Mike.
DeleteYour description of “tame” probably means your going slow and focusing on the real aspects rather than the fantasy play. I believe this is good . Every relationship since the beginning of time has suffered from conflict that results when two very different sexes try to impose their will on each other. That is why we have a divorce rate of over 70% in American. A WLM is magic in the sense that it creates a relationship where there is little conflict as long as both partners are willing to apply the principles and integrate them into the basic framework of their relationship . I have an unwilling partner whom I was trying to entice into the dynamic , or basically impose my will upon . This never works ! Crazy when you consider that she is actually demonstrating her dominance in her rejection of the WLM. LOL
Cuckolding is a mysterious and fascinating dynamic. Given that your wife is truly dominant,It does not surprise me that she did not completely reject the.idea. I believe It is a very mature expression of dominance that very few men can handle. Be careful, and remember once the ball gets rolling It is hard to control. It will take you to a completely new level in your relationship !
Take care
John Dalton
Hi John
DeleteIt's going well for us. Yes, we're taking our time and just communicating and what works best.
Would you say your partner is happier going back to the traditional aspect? Sounds like you're not as excited as before.
Cuckolding may be a good topic to discuss on here again. I realize I provide a certain special specific role. And perhaps cuckold allows for another special role.
-Mike
Hi Mike,
DeleteMy wife is a little confused but much happier since we have moved back to the traditional lifestyle. I am completely focused on my family and career while she is focused on maintaining the house and preparing meals . This seems very odd to me since I completely maintained the house for the last two years.
I have now taken on a much stronger persona which she seems to need and I am learning to enjoy the comforts of becoming a pampered husband. We have no intimacy but we function well together and I love her deeply. I cannot say I am happy about our direction but at least we are beyond the struggle. I Find contentment in knowing my journey has finally past and I have no desires to pursue this dream anymore.
I hope the group will tolerate my comments as I vicariously share in your experiences . I still very much believe in the lifestyle but at some point the woman in this relationship dynamic has to move from the awkwardness of the introduction to embracing the full scope of power and dominance. My wife simply could not make the transition. I wish all well
John Dalton
Hi John
DeleteSeems like you like your role a little. Perhaps both of you found a balance in what you're doing now.
Do you think the lack of intimacy is due to the dynamic of the current relationship?
And are you doing better not being submissive? Appears you transitioned decently in that aspect.
-Mike
I couldn't agree more. Take it slow and let it evolve on it's own. Treat her like a queen, be submissive, but let her come in to dominance at her own pace. Remember this goes against everything she has been exposed to her entire life. She may be very hesitant to take control. You need to show her the benefits of taking control. My wife was very sexually dominate from the start, but was not really interested in anything else, until she was, then things changed. She loves the fact now that she is "Head of Household". She was literally many years coming into her dominance. As far as cuckolding I doubt this will ever happen. I was always worried about the fact that she might want a dominate man in bed to "take" her. I knew if we progressed in this relationship she would never see me that way again, but even in the early days I would try to be aggressive and she would have none of it. She wants a submissive man in the bedroom. I have always had a suspicion that she would like to try a bigger penis, so who knows. It's nothing I would want or push for, but at this point I know that this is not my decision. The best advice I could give Mike is to let her set the pace. She needs to feel comfortable that this is going at a pace she can control. If she get overwhelmed she may back away. So, "tame" is good. Take care and stay safe-Alan
ReplyDeleteThank you Alan
ReplyDeleteYour words are helpful. She likes being head of the household, as do I like her to be. Seems fitting for both of us. I encourage her on being a leader vs telling her how.
Do you think your wife would ever find a guy she likes to please her, as you mentioned?
-Mike
I doubt it would ever happen. It’s not a fantasy of mine. We have purchased a Winter winter home recently, so we will be in a totally different environment next year and this my change things entirely. If this is something she wanted to try I think we have a stable enough marriage that I wouldn’t discourage her. A year ago I would have said never, but she has come so far in the last six months I am so certain anymore. You’re doing well researching as you are. I was a lurker for years and never thought I was a true part of the community so I never commented.Now I am truly in a full fledged WLM. I can’t relay how exciting it has been since we finally arrived. Try to keep from putting too much pressure on her and I think you will get there eventually. Take care and stay safe - Alan
Delete