Below is a post from Karl, another new guest contributor. Karl raises some interesting questions and thoughts on FLR. I'd love to hear from all of you on what you think about his observations and how would you respond to some of his questions. -Kaylee
Commonalities Among Submissive Men
Within a
relationship that eventually turns to FLR, I believe there is a common thread
in the men. For me, the sexual part is somehow tied with my well-being
and is at the root of my unending desire to serve my wife who I view as my
Queen and Earthly Goddess. However, it only works if she behaves like a
Goddess. I have wrestled with this my entire life, because my spouse,
like most women, had no idea this is “a thing”, i.e. that is submissive men
that would prefer a FLR.
How many men are "wired" this way (sexually submissive and/or
just submissive to their wives) and to what degree is the wiring nature versus
nurture. Are (most or many) men who are naturally submissive born this
way, is it a by-product of environment, parenting, personality traits, etc.? There
seems to be very little professional studies on the FLR relationships, dominant
wives or sub husbands. This might lead one to the conclusion that it is
uncommon. However, there are a few clues that it may be more natural and
pervasive than meets the eye:
Mz. Kaylee’s approach is perfectly in tune with me, and it would appear
from the comments throughout the posts that other men feel the same.
Since the “tools of the trade” Mz. K addresses throughout her blog work pretty
much universally on most sub males, it seems likely to me that this wiring is
at least somewhat common. It is almost eerie how similar sub males are
and what they truly want from their Goddess wives.
From what I have observed on this blog and other similar here are some
commonalities of sub men who would thrive in an FLR. Speaking for myself
these are all applicable:
·
Probably professionally successful, self motivated and neutral if not
dominant or alpha outside of the home.
·
Crave discipline (spanking) but are not necessarily masochists.
·
Crave direction, rules and structure from their wife or significant
other.
·
Want to be feminized and/or “forced” to wear panties, etc. but are not
cross-dressers or transgender.
·
Would like to be penetrated by their wives but are not gay
·
Pleasing the wife sexually is more important then their own release.
·
Pleasing their wife by completing chores she requires is a top priority
·
Orally pleasing the wife is a spiritual experience.
·
Loves to kiss her ass passionately and with reverence.
·
The more she requires the better especially if it comes with some
teasing along the way.
It may appear that there are not a lot of women and men who would enjoy
the benefits of an FLR, but since our culture is deeply patriarchal, men are
forced to act a certain way or face extreme ridicule. Women are also
trained from a young age that they should be submissive to men. There is
a lot to overcome to get a lifestyle reversal of roles.
Men joke all of the time about the wife being in charge. That is
ok, as long as you mask it in a joke and all the other guys laugh. That
seems almost universal among men, i.e. joke around about it, but then act like
a macho man and try to let everyone know you are the boss, so you are not
viewed as pussy whipped.
I wonder if a culture was such that men were
taught from a young age that they will grow up, ask for a lady’s hand in
marriage, and then commit to a FLR, would that feel
natural to most people?
I also wonder if a young woman understood and was taught essentially
what Mz. K is teaching on her blog, how successful she would be at getting a
man to commit to a lifetime of obedience and servitude? I am guessing she
would have no trouble attracting a dedicated sub husband to serve her for
life. Taken the next step further, what if most women just expected a vow
of obedience and a FLR based marriage, what would happen?
I have also wrestled with the sexual nature of an FLR. I feel bad
that without the sexual component I would not choose to just obey my
Goddess. I have answered this question in two ways. Why would anyone
give up freedom and commit to serving another person if there was nothing in it
for them? Since men are designed to desire sex constantly, if possible,
why not take this incredible driving force and channel it into serving women
and bringing peace to men?
The truth is most men masturbate and watch porn to do something with the
sexual energy. If you think about, that is a tremendous waste. Even
if a man is not a sub he should still practice retention because it builds our
energy and our life force.
It just turns out that male sexuality is a constant and so understanding
it and channeling it is just common sense. If it turns out the man is sexually
submissive than finding a dominant woman who understands all of this is truly
special.
The ultimate reward for a submissive male, who is in an FLR, is something
called subspace. Subspace is an amazing feeling of bliss, peace and
tranquility that appears to me can only be achieved by a sub who truly gives
himself to his Goddess. Given how amazing it is, how is it not common
knowledge or even addressed in main stream?
My guess is about 10% of men would eagerly submit to a woman in the
context of a FLR if she knew what she was doing. My suspicion is the only
reason that number is not closer to 80% is our culture, and a lack of
understanding of sexuality – particularly retention (orgasm control).
I would venture something like 2% of women would easily take to an FLR
if offered the chance. However, if they truly understood all of the
benefits for both parties and the culture were different that number would also
be about 80%.
The bottom line is I think an FLR is more in tune with nature, but
culturally were in too deep to let it blossom.
What do you think?
KL
I generally think of myself as a husband who submits to my wife, but not really as a "submissive," largely because I identify strongly with your first bullet, above. For me, they are all generally true except the 7th. For some reason, I really bristle at being told to do various chores. I comply, but it is not easy and I definitely do not get off on it in any way.
ReplyDeleteI suspect you are close to right about the percentage of men who would submit to a woman in an FLR relationship. 10% sounds about right, though it could be higher. I honestly don't think culture has all that much to do with it being so low. If that were the case, I would expect to see more variation among cultures throughout history. Yet, patrimony has been the rule and matriarchy the very infrequent exception. I don't think there are really all that many men who would want this lifestyle, regardless of cultural impediments. But, I do, think culture plays a role in the number of women who are into an FLR, and I think your 2% is too low even in the current US culture. I have a blog devoted to Domestic Discipline and FLRs, and I'm always surprised at how many of the male commenters say their relationships started vanilla, but as some point they asked their wife to try Domestic Discipline and/or FLR and the wife ended up taking to it like the proverbial duck to water. I think women are, in general, such practical creatures that if you give them a tool that ends a lot of marital fighting and annoyance, they are all for it.
Hi Dan,
DeleteCulture patriarchy and matriarchy are interesting topics. From some research I have done, there is pretty good evidence that prior to about 2500 BC many cultures were matriarchy's. If you look closely at Egyptian period art, you can see hints of females having more relationships. Statues depicting powerful couples sitting together have the woman with her arm around the man as if she possessed him and they are the same size and height.
I theorize there was a spiritual shift having to do with the shift in ages (the aquarius, pisces and Taurus ages have about 2166 years between them based on astrology/astronomy) that ushered in patriarchy.
I think simply put, what we started fighting each other concurrent with population growth, men took over out of survival and until recently stayed in charge. Now that we are in an age where survival is not as much in question we have time to think of other things. I think that is leaving room for women to re-ascend.
Taken the next step, I believe that if times were more peaceful and we were not fear based, matriarchy would come more natural. But perhaps because it feels natural to me and I am happiest when serving my wife I am just looking for evidence to support how I feel?
AS to your experience with some women taking to FLR's like ducks to water, I would speculate that these are open minded women and confident, so when presented with what could be amazing for her and her husband it becomes a no-brainer.
Thanks for your reply, this is my first crack at sort of blogging (borrowing Mz. K's blog anyhow!)
Karl
This is insightful. I find much of it hits the mark with my husband. I also have come to know that he craves/needs/responds to rules and structure and direction. I also feel that I witness a lot of female friends (usually married) who are totally in charge but it is often not formalized like in an FLR. There seems to be something incredibly deep in him that responds to female authority. I find it fascinating (and beneficial!).
ReplyDeleteThat is a great distinction. Maybe the right classification breakdown is (a) non-FLR marriages; (b) FLR marriages in all but name; and (c) formalized FLRs
DeleteI remember when I was about 5 years old and an older girl was spanking the other kids (playing house or something and it was play). I remember even at that age being intrigued in a different way and I wanted her to spank me. It wasn't sexual at that but time it stirred something, might even be my first memory in life! She didn't spank me btw, I think I was too little at the time.
DeleteBottom line is these feeling or my "wiring" is what I have always been.
Thanks for the reply Jessica!
I think I forgot to thank you for your reply, but I thanked all of the guys. WTF is wrong with me? (:
DeleteSo thanks for your reply, I think I was just so excited about responding to a dominant woman I forgot my manners.
Karl
Karl - my husband has had similar domination type feelings at a very young age (he shared this with me previously). Prior to puberty he would fantasize frequently about being ordered around by girls or kidnapped by girls. Other men have wrote similar things so I think for some men, they are hard wired to be submissive.
DeleteThat reminds me of the kidnapped fantasies I had pre-puberty. Totally forgot about until you mentioned them.
DeleteAs I have mentioned before, I believe the wiring is there for many/most men. You might access at a young age or it can be developed......
Karl, I absolutely agree with your commonality's. It would seem that men who identify as submissives almost always trend to the same desires in a FLR. Typically I do not enjoy reading blogs by men simply because I have all the same ideas and there is nothing new. I find myself feeling sorry for the wife because in real life she is just playing to his fantasies Sure we all have our pet desires but I believe as men mature they have to put away these fantasy elements and focus on her desires with hope that real submission will be even more exciting than their playtime desires. Now let's be clear, I am not opposed to having my desires fulfilled but I want to feel her desire grow even as she takes the whip in her hand or plunges her strap on deep in my ass. It has to be something we both need and want.
ReplyDeleteAs for the percentage of men, I think your way off base. I have never know a man that could resist a dominant woman. I work with some of the most macho men on the planet and have had the opportunity at trade shows to stand back and watch as they melt in submission to a woman of dominance. All men are submissive! This is one of the most profound revelations that my wife has experienced as she has embraced her dominance. Even men that are in superior positions to her at work are now obsessed with her presence and are clearly under her control.
Take care
John D
I also only read blogs not eh subject from women. I am fascinated by women in general and I love to read about how being a dominant female works for them and their perspective.
DeleteThere was a recent study done on dominant/sub erotica which may backup what you are saying about men using your trade show story.
The link below is the full study, but below is an excerpt from a study done by psychologists in Australia around male/female dominance and erotica. They basically created 4 groups that read different types of erotica, this is a takeaway from the group that read the female dominant stories:
Interestingly, when men read about a sexually dominant female they came to value female dominance more. Meanwhile, men in the other groups did not value having a sexually dominant partner at all. In other words, men became more accepting of the idea after reading about it in a story—just like social cognitive theory teaches us!
That simple or so it seems, read a story and men are immediately more open to female dominance. I think a lot (most?) men have the sub wiring, it is just buried under culture and shame……
Link to article:
https://splinternews.com/psychologists-flipped-the-gender-roles-in-erotica-and-h-1793857706
So with just a little exposure to dominant women men begin to immediately respond favorably. Speaking for myself, since a young age I have behaved outwardly like I am supposed to (displaying dominant male traits towards women) but it has been an act from the beginning. I think there is ample evidence that if it were safe to submit to your wife outwardly there would be a lot of collared males running around town (;
Karl
The use of statistics here is obviously quite approximate and informal, but parts of the narrative can be supported by the Hawley and Hensley survey of sexual fantasies. You can read a discussion of the survey here:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2010/11/20/do-men-or-women-have-fantasies-of-dominance-and-submission-the-results-noh/
Overall, the conclusion of the survey is that women are strongly averse to dominance-based fantasy, while men are surprisingly interested in submissiveness.
This suggests to me that it's vitally important for men to pitch their ideas for anything like FLR arrangements in totally non-sexual terms. Women simply don't find any of this stuff sexy, at all. They don't want it integrated with their sex lives. In fact, I'd bet that there are all kinds of women who would be perfectly happy being dominant in 20 different non-sexual ways all week long (at work, in politics, in social organizations, at churches, at holiday events, etc), but want the bedroom to be the one place where they have a strong man who make them feel vulnerable and protected.
In that respect, I think the 2% vs 10% estimate (basically a 5-to-1 mismatch) is in the right ballpark. For every five men who want to be sexually submissive, there's only one woman who wants marriage to any of those men. And that creates a horrible supply-demand imbalance. I think this explains some of the intense craziness of femdom pornography online. There are a huge number of totally unrealized fantasies that are radically disconnected from real-world relationships. It's the most "fake" corner of the fetish world, with all kinds of websites that are little more than wish-fulfillment fiction.
The whole situation is horribly tragic. I think men in the unserved 8% are mostly trying to solve their problem by feeding it with extreme fantasy scenarios, when it would be much better to transfer their submissiveness to non-sexual aspects of submission. Most women would love to have men who were service submissives in a domestic context, and would probably warm up slowly to other aspects of the relationship over time -- though only sparingly and mixed with more vanilla expressions of intimacy. But few men have the patience to gradually coax their wives into slightly greater displays of dominance by spending years washing the dishes and giving backrubs (often poorly and with too many demands for praise along the way!)
It's a relationship model that works really well once you finally get everything working properly, but the amount of investment required to reach that point can be incredibly high, and getting to finally pay off still requires the equivalent of winning a lottery. I'm slowly moving into something that feels a little closer to being "lifestyle" FLR rather than just teasing, with real obedience and punishment dynamics, but it's still a marriage style that my wife only wants to do when her emotional energy is high and she's not feeling too much stress. When she's worn down (which has happened a few times over the holidays now), she just wants to cry and be held and feel secure with the support of a strong husband. Men need to remember that being submissive is raw fun and a constant source of energy, while for women (outside that 2%) being in a dominant mode often feels like added work piled on top of other work.
I would generally agree with most of what you have stated here. I would have to read the study, but I might venture a guess without even looking at the conclusion that women are strongly averse to being dominant is over stated. Researcher bias can influence these studies, demographics and geographic location, religion all would play strong roles as well.
DeleteMy bias, which I admit I look for evidence for, is that if women felt safe to exert themselves and really understood what an FLR is and the benefits, a lot of women would convert more quickly.
Thanks for your reply John.
Karl
"I feel bad that without the sexual component I would not choose to just obey my Goddess."
ReplyDeleteIn this case, it appears to me that you are talking about topping from the bottom.
Submission has no strings attached. I would like to have more frequent sexual activities, but when and how is strictly up to my wife. But my greatest satisfaction is knowing that my wife is getting exactly what she wants and that I am instrumental to her pleasure.
I serve my wife gladly. My reward is her smile and her happiness at the thought that I my love for her is the only motivation I need to serve her.
I suspect that the male desire for an FLR can have as many sources as there are men.
I feel the way Anonymous does.
ReplyDeleteWell here’s the big dilemma, how to get the FLR you want, without telling her how you want that implemented. Ideally, she will accept your FLR proposal, and figure out how she wants to proceed with it. The kinks, controlled orgasms, punishments etc. will be much sweeter if they are her idea and what she wants. It is difficult for us guys to stay quiet about our desires in the relationship. Do you want your woman to beat your ass and lock you in a chastity device? Chances are she will not do so, unless you indicate it is what you want. Remember, as much as you want her to happy, she in turn, wants you to be as well.
I don’t think men are all that submissive, we just want to play that part in our relationships. When I proposed an FLR with my wife, I gave her an overview what it is about and said that it might make our marriage more exciting and interesting. I encouraged her to do her own research on the internet to help her figure out how she could benefit. If I found a good site, like this one, I shared it with her. She has made some changes, but otherwise our marriage is much like it has always been.
Hello Karl,
ReplyDeleteIt would appear that we have a lot in common. I followed the link and reviewed the study . The study absolutely supports my premise that all men are programmed from birth with an overwhelming desire for submission but it also shows that women are much more multi dimensional than men and are likely to to find excitement in reading about both roles . I believe that once a man begins to challenge societal expectations of male dominance and allows his mind to follow his natural desires of female dominance there is no path back to " normal "..
It always surprises me when a study like this is presented that it will typically bring up the established presence of erotica based on male dominance as the standard (i.e. 50 shades of grey) while ignoring the mainstream concept of overwhelming female dominance in nearly every movie or weekly show that we watch . The empowered female is bold and present to some greater or lesser degree in nearly all popular media today. Again, I believe this is symbolic of what women want in a FLR. Real power and real submission to that power without the trappings of the male fantasy elements . Men need to realize that fantasy play is like experiencing the thrill of jumping out of an airplane via a scene in a movie compared to the thrill of actually strapping on a parachute at 5000 feet and leaping out the door! I can assure you there is no comparison ! If you want to really experience groth in your FLR take that leap but remember there is no going back.
John D
I am enjoying this discussion. It is great to see research included in the discussion. I hope others will weigh in. I have some thoughts of my own that I will share when I have more time.
ReplyDeleteevanho - Thanks for sharing the study and I think your assessment of the study and the opinions you shared were very good. I also agree with many of the overall themes from the other comments, but I think a few of you are taking a bit of an extreme view. A few thoughts of my own: I found it interesting that a high percentage of females in the study also leaned toward the submissive fantasy. It shows that it is common for both sexes to want to experience submission. I wonder if more men have the fantasy because more men are in leadership positions and therefore the submissive fantasy is an escape for them. As more women move into leadership roles in society, I wonder if the submissive fantasy will begin to swing more towards women. It is important to keep in mind that this study was based on fantasies and not reality. I believe that often times what people think is not always what they will do in reality, especially when it comes to sensitive topics like submission. In my opinion, if women were properly trained and educated on FLR and were able to experience it, then a large percentage of women would choose to continue the FLR route. I think the same would be true for men. The biggest barrier to getting women and men to try FLR is their preconceptions of what they think it is and the fear or uncomfort of trying something vastly different than what they know. The dynamics of FLR are not easily understood until you actually dive in and give it a try.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the theme that men trying to get their wife to dominate them, need to look for non-sexual ways to submit to their wife and should sell their wife on the non-sexual benefits. However, the sexual component can not be ignored. Let's be honest guys,the sex component is a primary motivator for you. I know it is for my husband. I have a really hard time believing those of you who say you submit without expecting anything in return and you are happy just by making your wife happy. I ask you, is your wife doing things to make you happy? It is easy to say you submit without expecting anything in return, when you are already in a good situation. If your wife gave you no sex at all and completely ignored you, would you still be happy to submit without expecting anything? Probably not. A relationship is about both people satisfying each other. It is not one-sided.
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing wrong with admitting that your desire for submitting relates to sexual desires. If you are fortunate enough to have your wife embrace her dominance and submission, you will find that as you experience the submissive journey, overtime the sexual desires never go away but you will find deeper fulfillment in also serving and obeying your wife in other ways.
Karl, I clearly recognize myself in your bulleted list of commonalities among submissives except for the one about forced feminization. I don't want to be sissyfied, I want to be seen as a real, strong, resourceful, potent man who is devoted to and ruled and dominated by the the real Feminine power of my Wife. I do wear my Wife's worn panties sometimes (with Her permission) but that's because I simply like the feeling of my penis being where Her pussy was before, especially when I am being denied vaginal sex for longer periods.
ReplyDeleteMz Kaylee, you hit the nail on the head with the last post; I fully admit that my craving for submission is sexually based. I would lose interest if I was not getting anything in return. But that doesn't mean that I was not or wouldn't be attentive to my Wife's needs (including sexual) before entering the more explicit Femdom phase of our relationship. My Wife is not even aware of the formal concept of Female domination, yet in same areas She dominates me naturally and I gladly obey and follow Her. We were, are and hopefully will remain partners above all.
For me, feminization is not a strong one but an interest - my wife is not into it though.
DeleteI agree with your second paragraph that it is sexually based, but am still attentive to my wife regardless.